Patreon page up!
Community Forums/Monkey2 Talk/Patreon page up!
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| Hi, The patreon page is now open! https://www.patreon.com/monkey2 Ok, it's nothing much to look at right now so I'll quite understand if there isn't a huge rush to support it(!), but I think it's more important to get things rolling than wait for the 'right' moment. I'll be adding more to the page over the next few days, including a more concrete outline of what I actually plan to produce and when so please stay tuned. In terms of patreon 'rewards', the only thing available right now is the chance to get annoying 'heart' next to your username! I'll be considering what else to offer in future - and if anyone has any ideas...? One thing that occurs to me is something like a weekly/monthly build package, so if you don't like messing with github or whatever you can get a clean, monkey1 style zip. One thing I don't really want to do is limit access to github, as I it would limit peoples ability to see what I'm up to and contribute. But this is all very much up in the air right now... |
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| Maybe you could have a contribution package where they could ask for a specific feature for a price? Or early access to alpha/beta code? Just asking for people to contribute just because ya need the cash doesn't work very well in todays 'what do I get for my money' society. |
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| First! Some of the other artists garnering patronage are quite something, monkey2 is in excellent company. |
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| Awaiting heart! |
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| ♡DugBunny♡ |
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| Hearts and stars. It makes site look more Nintendo. |
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| . |
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Maybe it can be the logo of patreon? so everybody knows what it means. |
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| Yeah, or a small logo "supporter" or something like that... ;) |
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| I *was* going for the nintendo/videogame look...couldn't find a '1UP' that fit in 16x16 so went with the heart. But I'm open to suggestions - it was kind of just the first thing that popped into my head. I like it myself! Brightens up the site a bit. |
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Did you mean the "1UP" Text or the Mushroom?  |
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| What about a little monkey face? As I take it you are keeping with the Monkey name. |
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| I like the mushroom! > What about a little monkey face? That'd probably be the most logical - I did consider it but for some reason was digging the heart. |
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| Support it as well! Good luck with it! |
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| for me it's just that it's really RED (255,0,0 ?). An icon with a more discreet color would surely be looking better... |
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| I would be careful using that mushroom if you decide to use it... looks very much like the one from Mario = Nintendo copyright... |
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| Do it modify, change little the green piece :D |
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Resized to 16x16 from https://www.patreon.com/toolbox?ftyp=media   |
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| for me the patreon icon has a lack of poetry.... |
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| ...perhaps patreon could sponsor me! |
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| I'm a patron too! ^^ |
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| I agree 'heart' isn't the best thing in a programming forum! I like the patron-icon and mushroom (but it seems too much 'game'-thinghy!) A star, a shield a sword or even a closed punch(!) (seems like a rebellion symbol! :D) seems more logic too me. And now, reading paetron.com to see how it works... Good move in any case! edit: I suppose that MONKEY2 will the 'final' name, right? I just focused about 'Rebel' as name... sound quite original, it gives the idea to 'rebel' to the 'standard-official-professional-languages'... just my thoughts!!! |
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| I’m in. Good luck! |
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| wow, first time for me that i feel a reason to Register myself on patreon! |
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| I don't know if this will be useful to me, but I will get a monthly payment started now. |
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| Supporting and looking forward to my heart! |
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| Mark, adding a Patreon link to your signature wouldn't klll you! XD I'm awaiting for my nice red heart XD |
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| This is very exciting! Great to see something like this finally happening. Good luck Mark! |
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| I think I just did it! Good luck Mark! |
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| Wow, the response to this has been amazing, way beyond what I expected! I am all fired up now!!! I have ended up hearting a bunch of people who's nick's I recognise whether they asked for it or not though - please email me if you want to be unhearted for whatever reason. Also, if I missed anyone out please also let me know. |
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| Ahem, I am Stephen Greener on there. |
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| D'oh, I knew that name looked familiar! |
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| :) |
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| Mark, I think you've got my Patreon as Lucien Bulles, as this is my FB name (long story related to me not wanting my students to find me!) |
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| Lucien Bulles?!? |
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| Done. Also I'm sure they picked the name "Patreon" because patron.com was taken. |
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| Just noticed that the facebook link on the Patreon page links to https://www.facebook.com/mark.sibly ... which doesn't exist... |
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| Seems to work here, wonder if I've some security setting on. |
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| Works if you are logged into a facebook account. Doesn't appear to work if you are not already logged into a facebook account. Works fine for me when I am logged into my account already. |
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| Congrats! You're now an official patron! :) |
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| Patroned! |
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| Congratulations for the good patreon start! Seeing all those hearts all over the forum is a joy, but I think they are getting more and more invasive giving all the people who are patroning... that red blasts my eyes every time! How about a yellow banana? Less invasive visually and more in the monkey spirit. |
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| GLHF Mark!!!! score is rounded =) |
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| Lets do this, i'm on :). |
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| +1 for the banana. |
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Or make the heart golden/banana yellow!  I looked at 16x16 icons for bananas and they don't look so good as small icons. It is possible to search Google images based on image size https://www.google.com/search?q=1up&es_sm=122&biw=1920&bih=989&tbm=isch&source=lnt&tbs=isz:ex,iszw:16,iszh:16 You could set a flag on our profiles, and let us choose an icon to display next to our names from a list - with heart default.                       And an option for people to disable seeing icons for those who hate fun. |
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| @Soap: ...let us choose an icon... This is leading more and more into avatars. The forums need Gravatar support. :( https://en.gravatar.com/ |
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| Well, full sized avatars take up extra space, and keeping them Patreon supporter only will get more people to support! |
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| And I'm in! Best of luck Mark! |
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| Patroned! Thanks for your hard work Mark! You deserve every penny. :) When can we expect to see a public build of Monkey 2? |
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| More than $400 on Patreon before release! Way to go, Mark! :) |
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| Got my little red monkey heart also. Cool. |
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| Funded! : ) |
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| Hearted! |
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| Bubbled! Wait... wrong forum... >_> |
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| Ditto! |
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| Hearts <3 I love it! |
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| Mark, how about doing a one time e-mail to people who purchased Monkey? And maybe BlitzMax too? Could use sendy.co to do it easily, and start an e-mail newsletter with it too. In e-mail explain basic plans for M2, link your Patreon, and have a link for them to join the newsletter list to be notified of updates else not get any more e-mail. |
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| Patroned! I've been on board since Blizbasic on the Amiga not getting off now. |
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| Over $500! Woo! |
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| Still factor 10 too low. ;) |
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| On board! Heart me man. :D |
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| Done! Thanks! |
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| @Mark I guess you're working on Mojo2 for Monkey right now too but any idea when there will be something like a rough roadmap or what's going on for Monkey 2 for the curious ones? Somehow, if everything goes well, i imagine this being a 6+x years journey (i mean the cycle of the product, not until release of a v1.x). |
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| I just doubled my monthly pledge for Monkey 2. I might not agree with all of Mark's decisions, but I think overall he's creating an interesting programming language that will be useful. Mark, any word yet on a first release/pre-alpha/alpha/beta version? I plan on increasing my pledge further once there is something tangible to experiment with. :) |
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| Over $600 now! Everyone get hearted up! I plan to increase my pledge amount over time too. The things which would make me pay more sooner would be strong desire to do what it takes to support modern consoles. For sure official first party support for Wii U, PS4, Xbox One (and maybe updating Monkey1 to support them too). I think that the vendors would be willing to give Mark development consoles without cost because he is a language creator and can facilitate many devs - the dialog just needs to be opened so the vendors can support Mark in making it happen. |
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| Over $600 now! Everyone get hearted up! I saw that. Neat stuff and Mark is just getting started. :) |
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| It seems too little still to me! Hope people will come later when there's actually something finished |
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| Hi all, Regarding V0.1 release, I hope to have something out within a month or so. It'll be a VERY early version, but it should include working compiler (ie: can build/run), cut down version of Ted and, most importantly, the basic module 'layout'. Then the arguments can REALLY begin! I was hoping it'd be a bit earlier, but I've been sort of split between monkey2 and mojo2 recently. But mojo2 is very nearly done, so after that I'll be able to go at monkey2 full time for a while (assuming there are no serious teething problems with mojo2!). And once there is something for people to actually download and play with, I'm gonna get more serious about pushing monkey2. |
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| I'm both eager and comforted. :) Can't wait to get a hold of mojo2.. Like the plan. +1 |
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| @marksibly: Regarding V0.1 release, I hope to have something out within a month or so. On Github, I hope! :) |
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| $601 already. I think it is very nice considering that there is nothing released yet, and that probably nobody outside this community has heard about Monkey2. |
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| I will be honest here: I await a first version and then decide if I will back this monthly.... I have a good idea about where this is heading, but I kinda got burned with Monkey 1. |
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| I once was happy with Monkey (thought it was a nice name too) but i thought it would evolve into a reasonable direction. Instead Mark spent his time on aspects which no one really needed whilst basic stuff still was broken/cumbersome, features you wanted/needed were missing, ... at some point i stopped using or even playing around with it. When i needed a Blitz-like experience, i fired up Max instead. In hindsight buying Monkey was like saying thanks for Max and seeing it as a learning experience for Mark for what comes next. Crossing my fingers for Monkey 2. :O) |
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| It depends on the target applications. I found it hits the spot very well in terms of what I bought it for, i.e. easy and almost perfectly cross-platform apps across a wide range of platforms. Unfortunately the compromises involved in that probably interfere with what some others are looking for, Maybe the slight retrenchment in terms of platforms will make other possibilities more available for Monkey 2. (I do hope some attention will be paid to the possibility of getting a HTML5 target in there at some point, even if significant language and mojo2 options have to be flagged out of bounds for the target.) |
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| Flash/Ouya/... were dead ends those days already and HTML5 is used for different kind of purposes than native apps. |
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| Flash isn't dead till it's dead. And I consider there's a lot of game design overlap with regard to casual browser and mobile games. In any case, that was what was advertised and what I wanted. |
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| Flash is dead since years for most use cases it used to be an option. You might want to create a simple/casual game but you still want to release it on mobile or desktop but not via the browser, not with a plugin, not with HTML5. |
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| As long as Flash is still able to be used with browsers like Chrome, Firefox, Safari etc. it's not dead. Windows apps can mostly only be played on Windows PC. They are still extremely profitable even though they can't (easily) be ran elsewhere. Flash is in the same boat. Flash apps are more portable than HTML5 apps, Flash player is still widely installed. There are still popular Flash sites which have lots of traffic. It's still useful, especially to market, but as a potential target shouldn't be used as an excuse to hurt other targets! |
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| I'm now patroning, looking forward to how things develop :-) |
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| Thanks, you've been hearted! |
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| Patron here, can I have a heart pleeeeze? :-) |
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| Yes you can! If I've missed anyone else, please just let me know. |
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| I support monkey too. I love it :) |
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| $700+ now!! |
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| Done |
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| York & Arthur now hearted - thanks! |
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| If there will be iOS camera and gallery features then I'll guarantee $100 USD per month for the next 12 months minimum. |
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| I have an Android and iOS camera/gallery module, if you Patreon Mark then I'll release it to the community ;) |
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| Monkey is fantastic! I support monkey2 too! |
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| I have an Android and iOS camera/gallery module, if you Patreon Mark then I'll release it to the community ;) If Mark can add it officially to Monkey 2 and then keep it working should it break with future iOS / Android updates then I'm in. No offence but user modules sometimes get abandoned and then we're stuffed when things change :/ |
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| I doubt it would be officially added as it is very platform specific, either way I plan to release it along with some other modules in a couple of weeks. |
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| If I didn't want to donate, I would wold not donate rather than make requests that are more than likely not going to happen just so that I would sound like I care. I know Mark can and is quite capable but is working on a bigger picture and is not going to get out of his confort zone just to please one person while neglecting everybody else. I am also not saying Mark won't do it, it's just highly unlikely to happen any time soon and I would bet against it in the long run also. I would use CopperCircle code rather than hold my breath waiting for Mark to make his own. Hey, I could be wrong. |
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| Jesus Jesse, pipe down. No harm is asking and doesn't require a silly outburst either. |
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| Done |
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| No, there is absolutely no harm in asking! But as has been mentioned, it is a relatively specialised feature that is probably not gonna spin a whole bunch of people's wheels, so it's not high priority right now. Or even medium to be honest... |
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| Sorry, I am over it now. |
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| Mark, why is there a reward option? |
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| The reward option is labeled for the heart? |
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| I know, i was wondering why it is an option. |
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| Can you even have a Patreon without any "rewards" possible? |
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| Mark, could you please answer my question? |
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| > Mark, why is there a reward option? I have no idea, never even noticed it before but I guess it's just the way Patreon works. It's not mentioned whether people want to be rewarded or not in the notification emails I receive so I just reward everyone. I can un-reward you if you want? |
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| No, you can leave it like it is. |
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| Done! :) |
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| AnotherThanks, AnotherMike! |
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| I went ahead and backed. I've yet to really work through a project with monkey to completion as life seems to like to get in the way of this little hobby of mine, but Monkey has become the language I come back to every time. Looking forward to the future. |
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| Hi Mark, please remove the heart from my user. Thank you. |
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| @MikeHart Let it go, Mike! Ask yourself why you are allowing the people that, through no fault of your own, engineered bad and stressful experiences for you in the past the power to control within your mind the systems that when actioned cause you to feel angry, frustrated and hurt? I now that in the past certain individuals caused you financial loss ( won't mention here ) with their greed and selfish lies and stupidity. Please don't allow them to steal from you any more even though what they are stealing now is not money but something priceless, your good nature, your will to help and ability to b happy. They're all gone. One particular nasty individual is exactly where he belongs and in my humble opinion should never be let free. Again, they're all gone but in your mind they are still there and they are still stealing from you, lying and betraying your trust and good will. Why? Because you allow them to. It takes time to heal. It is possible and achievable but will take an exceptionally longer time if you are not willing to become aware now that they're gone and thzt allowing them that kind of power within your mind is what is causing the you of today. |
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| Let it go, Mike! Amon???? The reason I ask to remove the heart is because after next month I will stop on Patreon. Simply as that. There is nothing to let go in the first place. I am totally fine. Won't stop using Monkey. Just choose to stop on Patreon next month. Ok? |
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| Yes, ok, I understand. |
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| I think confusion might be from using this forum thread to declare removal of support, instead of just emailing blitzmunter or whatever his account is, privately. |
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| It's a shame that the heart icons don't link to the patreon page or this thread instead of the user profile. |
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| Yeah, that would make sense. |
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| It's a shame that the heart icons don't link to the patreon page or this thread instead of the user profile. +1 :) Good idea. |
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| hello, I'm donating on Patreon with my old facebook account. Now I want delete this account, and I already created a new facebook page. How I can to continue to donate with old account without recreate a new pledge? thank you |
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| OK, I have created a new donating, and now can I delete old pledge? |
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| > and now can I delete old pledge? According to Patreon... https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204606205-How-do-I-delete-my-pledge- |
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| Thanks, I'm still continuing to support monkeyx2 with the same share but with a different account. great monkeyx. |
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| Hi Mark, Since my personal situation has changed a lot this year, I had to delete my (small) plegde. I will start working at a (kinda big) webdesigncompany in November, leaving no room (and time!) for me to do any programming like I do now. Monkey is a great product and I loved using it. But the spare time I have left will be entirely spent with the wife and kids. And drinking beer ofcourse.. Good luck with Monkey 2. I will have a look at it in the near future when I have some spare time left.. ;) Kind regards, Sander |
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| Enjoy life... and good luck, Snader! |
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| Finally got around to pledging! :) Go Monkey 2! |
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| I checked the Patreon page and didn't see anything on there except help support Monkey 2. So is Monkey X being dumped at some point? What is the difference between creating a new Monkey 2 and continuing to update Monkey X? I realize each time we developers build something we learn things (both what to do and what not to do) so is that the reason for the new language? Just to write it better/cleaner or something? EDIT: Nevermind... I found a link to Mark's blog and got the reason. I'd delete this post but don't see a delete button. Will look again when on computer later. On cell phone now. |
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| Just in case anyone didn't receive the email: https://www.patreon.com/posts/3457485 |
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| Thanks Milky Joe... just in case! |
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| Mark, I deleted my Patreon account. P.S. Done. |
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| The unauthorized access was confirmed to have taken place on September 28th via a debug version of our website that was visible to the public. Hmm.... In other words, they gained access by an SQL injection attack because no one validated the input properly! I admire their truthfulness, but this is a concern, are there any other sites available like Patreon? |
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| @secondgear: There's a "donate" button on the blitzbasic.com site, at the top of the "product updates" section. Just need to register to access it. I'll probably just buy another Monkey X Pro license when I feel like contributing towards MX2 development. Add to my growing collection... |
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| Stop using Patreon, the whole database is hacked ! Mark should use a different place, because I don't thrust Patreon anymore (it was there fault) https://www.patreon.com/posts/3457485 |
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| I also stopped using Patreon yesterday. Security and privacy is more important to me. I hope I don't get thousands of spam eMails now... ...and I hope my credit card data is really safe. |
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| It looks as if only address and email information was at risk. Eh, not too concerning if the following statement is true. We do not store full credit card numbers on our servers and no credit card numbers were compromised. Although accessed, all passwords, social security numbers and tax form information remain safely encrypted with a 2048-bit RSA key. No specific action is required of our users |
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| Yeah, "only address and email information". Are you joking? |
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| Are you joking? It's what they say happened. |
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| OK, seems like a good thing. Nothing happened! Really! Nothing! |
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| You can download the 14GB database here: [I removed the link] just go to google and use the keyword patreon. Some people don't like to see a direct link here. I don't know why, maybe they feel safe if they don't see it ? Spreading is not an issue because its on almost every big new sites, and two clicks away using google. And this topic has only some few hits... But I don't want to make people angry, so that's why I removed the url. Again, I din't like to do it, and normally I don't post those stuff, but in this case I did because the links where on the news sites, and i'm a victim. I wondering if they will remove it to (no they don't) closing message with a :) |
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| I won't be using Patreon anymore. I'll just get a MX1 licence instead. :) |
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| Ouch... so patreon is too riscky or whatelse? Any official solution? I still wonder where my credit card number are stored as monthly there's the payment... |
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| Martjin, thank you NOT for spreading the data even more by your post linking to it. Are you out of your mind? These data were stolen. And you help spreading them. Way to go. |
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| @M.Hartlef (MikeHart) The biggest news site in our country post it, and several other big news sites. http://tweakers.net/nieuws/105578/criminelen-zetten-database-van-gekraakte-crowdfundingsite-patreon-online.html Its already online, so it don't make any difference, and I did post it to let people see that everyone can see the data. Maybe they don't believe me... https://www.google.nl/search?q=Patreon+Data+Dump&oq=Patreon+Data+Dump&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.342j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8 |
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| GC-Martjin you don't need to help people along by posting a link to the database. This must be against the AUP for these forums ... please remove it. |
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| Aside from the shipping address information I don't see much that is too concerning. But still any information leaked out is a bummer. http://observer.com/2015/10/patreon-data-dump-what-the-public-can-now-see/ |
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| @teresius In our country (the Netherlands) we hate censorship. its on the first page using google.com with the keyword "patreon" ... People need to know that everyone (can) have the database already. (with one keyword in google) |
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| According to this article the damage maybe a bit more deeper than thought. |
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| There isn't a single safe place to trust on the internet when it comes to your personal and private data. The fact that people are shocked is understandable but for me it's no shock. I'm used to it. Adobe, Sony, CarphoneWarehouse, etc and now Patreon, I really didn't find it a surprise. You must always be aware that when submitting your details, financial and personal, that you have to prepare for the eventual day, the inevitable day, when hackers will do what they do and you find your personal details all over the net. I'm not angry at the hackers. In fact I thank them as without them the security lapses or just outright blatant lack of respect to follow the simplest procedures to protect your data, Patreon for example, would continue unchallenged. Thanks to these hackers I am now blacklisting Patreon but not just the site. The person or persons, the management etc, no matter what, whether they move on and start another site online or wherever, will never be trusted to keep my personal data ever again. I have their names and most of their details also. Their disgraceful lack of taking customer and member details seriously is beyond contempt and so foolish that I doubt they really care. Considering how our details were taken it shows that investing in the security of our data was last on the investment list. They are blacklisted and not just temporarily. |
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| Well, i got pwned from the Patreon hack. |
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| I just deleted my payment information from the patreon site, waiting for more informations about. I think I will use the 'donate' button... it seems the best & more secure solution at the moment (well, I hope!) Just checked with https://haveibeenpwned.com ... and discovered that I'm in :) |
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| Did anyone get pasted too? |
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| Subscription based monthly payments can be set up in Paypal as well if people want to provide steady guaranteed income to support Mark. |
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| GC-Martijn, please remove your link. Distributing and or linking to stolen data that contains private personal information harms the victims of the original crime and hence is a crime also. |
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| if addressess were leaked, it's unacceptable, however, it's not really a concern, you can get most addresses from a public phone book, anyone heard of 192.com etc...? I still believe it was a simple SQL injection attack, that is, by far, the worse crime :op In case people are concerned, request a new CC/DC number, inconvenient, yes, but worth doing. |
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| The worst thing is, Creative People and Creators are directly affected by this sh*t. It's just sad if you want to run a business on free & open source developer tools, supported by the community/fans on a voluntary basis. For such a small business, it may be catastrophic. Reading about the background of the hack (Gamergate) is actually unbelievable. I'm interested in Compilers, Programming Languages, System APIs and Libraries - and not in any of that sh*t and wars within the gaming community, and within the game developers community. Actually, I'm really shocked. This is new to me, and I have never ever read something like that before. Reading about death threats, dox(x)ing, "white knights", and "social justice warriors" is really disturbing. Never ever read something like that before, with 20+ years of using and interest in ASM, PureBasic, C++, C#, Swift2, D, etc... What is this all about? Actually, I don't understand that culture, and - to be honest - it's the first time I read about such stuff. And, I don't really understand it. Seems like a different world to me. Can anybody explain clearly what all this is about? |
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| The mother of idiots is always pregnant. On internet, in social network, in schools, at work, in the trafic... we are the dominant species. It would be really (but really!) strange that human behaviour will be not present in forum etc... |
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| I edit my previous topic, and removed the direct link. to respect some people over here. But I still don't agree with it, but don't want to fight about it. Point is taken, people make there own decision by using that service. I thought that paypal is offering a monthly fee service, so maybe Mark can use that ? |
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| @Danilo: You could say that at the core of gamegate is the age old battle of the sexes. Industries that have always been predominantly male, do not like the idea that a woman may be able to do the job just as good or better than a man, and they don't take kindly when said women or their supporters speak out about certain aspects of said industry. And as with all people with the same ideas coalesce into an organized group, it attracts the misfits and extremists who violently object; and are prepared to use violence if your views are different to theirs. The real problem here is that the Internet and some social media sites allow anonymity of their users to spout their often vile rhetoric with virtual impunity. If you look around, you will more than likely find groups concerned with violence in video games that have their own misfits, extremists, white knights and social warriors. Usually when I come across these kind of people and the they take the stance that all the worlds problems are due to video games. I just say "so it hasn got anything to do with the likes of Francis Ford Coppola, Quentin Tarantino, Guy Ritchie and Martin Scorsese, all who have a much bigger audience base". Or that it is the parents responsibility to ensure that their child is instilled with knowing the difference from right and wrong and shielded from material aimed at a specific age group. |
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| Danilo / dawlane: Don't believe everything you read in games media or Wikipedia. I was hoping that GG and identity politics BS didn't have to be brought onto this forum, since I've been following it since the beginning and 99% of what information you can glean from the "reliable" sources are bad/lazy reporting, or even straight out lies and deliberate misrepresentations. Shouldn't be too unexpected given that the actual people being accused of being at the forefront of the controversy (IE: games media journalists) are using women and minority as shields to cover up for their questionable business practices. That part of the industry has been circling the drain, and getting into politics seems to be something of an exit strategy for some people. GamerGate is pretty much a kind of consumer revolt that got out of hand when a few key websites decided to put the kibosh on a small controversy involving one particular developer's alleged improprieties regarding a few journalists covering her in the news. Like any good conspiracy, it only blew up to epic proportions after the cover-up. The more stuff that got dug up, the more women and minorities were trotted out to help shield the journalists from having to report on each other's poor ethical practices. (Though to be fair, it wasn't just journalists getting dirt dug up on them in the beginning -- Polytron had a huge data dump early on from a hack which had information inside implying that there might've been an actual racketeering scheme going on with investors, who were also involved in the nominating and judging processes at one particular indie games competition / award show. I'll leave that to you guys to google that story yourself.) People (especially the new "elites", who made their names in this industry over the course of the past 10 years or less) got so emotionally wrecked over this BS over the course of the past year that they've taken to basically throwing objectivity completely out the window, even in places where they owe the public the responsibility to be objective (ie: In the news, or on Wikipedia). Several people have already been banned from Wikipedia, and some journalists have even lost their jobs for this. Even the FTC has gotten involved. You can tell that the sting the controversy left is still hurting people when random acts of terrorism are casually being attributed to this 'dead movement' by hack writers. Speaking of questionable business practices, looks like this might be a chip off the coat of paint that Patreon slapped their site up with. Most of the "permanent patronage recipients" of silicon valley moved to Patreon after a controversy at GitTip caused it to crash and burn a bit (blah blah blah, insert another story about feminism and/or identity politics here). GitTip's now called GratiPay, in case you guys were looking for a patreon alternative, but I can tell you that neither of these sites are going to be acceptable ways to receive income if your work is the least bit politically tainted by the silicon valley political (or as some would say, "PC"; no pun intended) elite. Lesson learned with patreon, I hope. Perhaps we can move on. I personally only signed up for patreon to help Mark, and I used a fake name to do it. Not sure if they have my actual billing address, but I am not surprised in the least that a silicon valley startup played fast and loose with our information. You guys shouldn't be surprised, either. The whole operation smelled of a money laundering scheme to begin with, to me. (Disclaimer: Personal opinion only, please don't sue) Edit: Woo, this will have been the first time I've spoken about these matters at length on the public record... |
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| Gamergaters certainly aren't fond of some of those who collect money on Patreon, but I'd be astonished if they had anything to do with this. Given the hack (probably Patreon made some security blunder which random hackers stumbled upon) , trolls are certain to link it to them, and many anti-gamergaters will happily leap in. As for Wikipedia, articles on this type of issue tend to be written from one side only. Wikipedia is a great resource for technology, maths, hard science or dead history. For current internet drama, not so much... Me, I'd agree with Dawlane that the battle of the sexes is involved, but it's not - despite the propaganda - anything to do with keeping women out of programming. It's more about finger-wagging nannies (mostly in the media) trying to tidy up gaming's man-caves and meeting resistance. Plus a ton of animus between personalities on both sides. That may not be how it started, but that's surely (IMO) the main impetus keeping it going now. But god bless those who have kept their sanity and not heard of it! Stay free, Danilo! |
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| Well said, Gerry. One day, may we all be free from this crap. |
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| It looks like some people (hackers) just have to much time on their hands! I am actually waiting for Mark to respond and what other payments he prefers (or did I miss his post here). You can also purchase a Pyro license. We donate 25% to Mark directly of each sale :) |
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| Why not Pay Pal? hmmm.... |
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| @Gerry Quinn: I think that the finger-wagging nannies just jumped on the band waggon. Unfortunately the wagon was going through a troll infested forest who kept giving it a good push. @Nobuyuki: I don't believe any of the things said in games media or Wikipedia as the whole truth. As Gerry says "articles on this type of issue tend to be written from one side only." and I should add "possibly full of errors, misinformation and omissions." As I see it; what has brought it all out into the lime light of the media, is a case of sour grapes because of a miss Quinn having a relationship with a reporter from a games magazine, and being accused of using said relationship to gain "favour", as a result of her unque game about depression getting a favourable review while the latest gun crazy, drug dealing, car jacking, homicidal rampage or whatever game was panned. I guess it upset the trolls who love gun crazy, drug dealing, car jacking, homicidal rampage or whatever game. |
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| Thanks. Maybe Paypal subscription is more secure, or Mark writes a cross-platform (mobile) app with in-App purchase/subscription. But that would probably take too much % from income. And add a Paypal Button to the IDE help or About window, etc. |
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| @dawlane: That was pretty much my initial opinion, too. What really changed my mind on the matter was watching the complete blackout/censorship of the matter on unrelated websites like Reddit and 4chan happen in real-time, followed by the "GameJournoPros" leak that people found which pretty much proved without a shadow of a doubt that there were shenanigans going on with regards to "fixing" the story between some journalists. You know, tip of the iceberg, and all that. Quinn was always a public figure -- she's done an excellent job of keeping herself in the limelight despite not really being directly related to any of the stuff which came afterwards. That is to be expected of someone who was appointed to be (and enjoys being) a media darling. The game itself was nothing really very revolutionary -- just some CYOA thing that I hear wasn't even that well-written -- but had a rather "unique" marketing campaign, that's for sure; of that most people who have any opinion on the matter at all can agree. The explosions-and-violence loving basement-dwelling trolls you mention, however, are super impotent when it comes to actually causing trouble. They're mostly just loud teenagers and the like, from what I can understand, maybe with a few adult manchildren thrown in who have a bone to pick and are given undue attention for their smack-talking. I'm surprised that these guys are both simultaneously derided as nerds (many of us peaceful life-long nerds end up being lumped in with them) while also being hyped up as the scariest bogeymen since ISIS, and perhaps even more surprised how many people swallow that story. That's sensationalist media for you. If there's any silver lining that can be gleaned from this data breach, it's that with all certainty that if any money laundering or quid pro quo was going on through Patreon, you can bet that someone with just a little too much time on their hands is bound to find the connections eventually. Anonymous contributors probably can't hide from this, unless they were in some separate database not involved with the breach... |
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| >GamerGate Oh boy. Most people who actually research this after having initially dismissed it find out they should not have dismissed it so quickly in the past. Other people never properly research it and instead form shallow, misinformed opinions on it based on what others tell them to believe. One side of it, the anti-GamerGate side has gone all or nothing to smear it. Dozens of corrupt wikipedia editors have been banned because of it. Look at snapshots of the wikipedia page a month at a time going back to where it began and see the progression of ideologically bent actors attempting to use the wikipedia platform to further their agenda. Some people are so desperate to associate it with negative things that they have compared it to ISIS, to being worse than ISIS. The ideologues still relentlessly try to smear gamers and people who care about games to the point where following people on twitter that they don't like has gotten tens of thousands of people called the worst harassers on the Internet by the IGDA. The IGDA retracted their statement, but still has not apologized for the libel. @dawlane >As I see it; what has brought it all out No, what made it really explode was the coordinated attempt to dishonestly smear and censor it nearly everywhere. They doubled down and used their influence on moderators and community managers in an attempt to censor all discussion everywhere. Then Gamers are Dead set of articles happened, which only further stoked the flames, and from there on it's just been more and more ideologues and dishonest people saying and doing things that has made it continue to grow in standing numbers. >getting a favourable review See this right here? This is anti-GG based disinformation. GG people doesn't say she got favorable reviews, but favorable coverage without disclosure, which is completely true and unethical. Disclosure everywhere has now become more common thanks to GG. Since GG started, people have discovered way more conflicts of interest and poor ethics ( documented here http://www.deepfreeze.it/ ), and actual cases of favorable reviews without disclosure. GG is directly responsible for the FCC getting more involved with stopping this kind of corruption. >I guess it upset the trolls who love gun crazy, drug dealing, car jacking, homicidal rampage or whatever game. Nah see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl-AGzJPvh8 , more like people are upset that all games and gamers are getting dishonestly attacked by ideologues and that the games media has largely helped to prop up the toxic ideological rhetoric. Like saying that playing games like Super Mario Brothers makes you a misogynist. Or the still constant attempt to try to say that games like Grand Theft Auto, which I assume you are referencing, actually cause people to be violent murderous criminals, which all research goes against. Or the ever more constant association games of trying to associate gamers with every negative event. Lying about games and gamers. To others, if you must go down the rabbit hole do your own research and make up your own minds, just don't rely on shallow opinions on this topic. Read the smear campaigns, read how gamers are dead, and read what "GG" people themselves say, and look at what they have actually done. If people tell you "don't look at that, don't read that" that's them trying to control you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZI2IRbSKts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipcWm4B3EU4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy9bisUIP3w https://www.reddit.com/r/kotakuinaction The monkey community is more important than talking about this here. If people want to talk though let them. Censoring is not the answer either. But talking elsewhere would be better. ------ FFS Patreon. It was at above $700 a while ago, a day ago I saw it was at $650 and now it's at $615. I assume because people are removing their accounts. @Mark and team you can setup your own subscription service through here. Use Stripe for CC payments and Paypal for everything else. If you don't want to do it yourselves hire someone to. If the Patreon money keeps going down that's lost money not just this month, but compounded into the long term. You'll end up collecting more of the money in the end doing it directly too. Please do this with urgency. Don't shut down the patreon though, let people move over as they feel like. |
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| It would be comforting to have the backing of a service that at least gives the impression of reliability when people whip out their credit cards to support a monthly patronage model... Does PayPal have a turnkey solution for that? Is there any red tape that Mark would have to look out for which Patreon helped gloss over (perhaps with regards to the fact it's patronage he's soliciting, and is not directly selling a service)? I will continue my monthly Patreon donation provided there are no hiccups, regardless. In for a penny, in for a pound, and all that... |
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| PayPal does allow you to accept subscription based payments without coding anything on your side. It's easy to do. Fill out a form and you'll have a link that people can use to give you money monthly. Just doing that is one option a fast/easy one to do. Stripe and PayPal's APIs are easy to use still. I'd like an integrated thing for the accounts here, have the monthly total (of Patreon + direct supporters) show at the top of every page. |
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| I will continue my monthly Patreon donation provided there are no hiccups, regardless. In for a penny, in for a pound, and all that... That's where I am at as well (baring more of the same or incomplete discloser). Damage done and this hack happened to there development set of code (as I understand it) and to me looks like a rookie mistake as opposed to negligence. Still whatever Mark decides as I think, information wise, he has more at stake then I. |
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| Damage done and this hack happened to there development set of code (as I understand it) and to me looks like a rookie mistake as opposed to negligence. I don't blame anyone who pulls out after their "rookie mistake". Patreon are a money-handling service, and they've been caught with their pants down. Any traditional financial institution with such lax security measures would probably get sanctioned by the government after a breach of this magnitude! |
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| @Mark Sibly: In the aftermath of what I read in the news, about hackers stealing account and card details from Patreon, I am now now strongly dubious about doing this patreon funding thing. Are you willing to give people the option of paying a one-off fee for buying a Monkey-2 licence if they prefer? |
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| I was referring to this BTW, in case you hadn't found out already. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34423932 |
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| The Patreon hack was indeed very disappointing - and it sounds like it was largely their fault too! I'm sticking with it for now while exploring alternatives (the more the better I guess) that preferably don't involve any web coding. I guess paypal is a start - anyone got any other suggestions? |
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| Stick with them. A system that has been hacked ends up being a stronger system. It does not phase me because I salt my passwords with the site i'm visiting so don't feel vulnerable at all. I am actually a little surprised that patreon needs to keep any information private, given the nature of the transactions. Also from what I can tell, Paypal's actions with wikileaks was unconscionable. |
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| A system that has been hacked ends up being a stronger system Good point! |
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| According to the reports it wasn't their system that was hacked per se, werkzeug debugger was enabled which was the reason why the system was hacked so if they learn from this all debugging operations should be on a non-public, preferably non-networked system. |
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| Not just enabled, but the debug server's IP mask on werkzeug was set to 0.0.0.0 which I'm assuming means "allow everybody", instead of the default 127.0.0.1 (localhost). Someone was saying that this was either a deliberate screw up, or a case of extremely poor judgement. I personally don't know what the best practices for routing exclusions these days, but the fact the debugger halts to an open prompt should have been a cue that it should never be facing the open Internet under any circumstance. Did this thing have access to the live data, or just a copy made for debugging purposes? Etc. Poor practice all around... |
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| Well, considering the nature of the error (due to negligence or stupidity... I dont know), I have doubts about the entire things. Believing that this means they will be stronger, well, too easy. I suspect other and more important breaches, I have many difficult to trust them anymore. Ten years ago none though seriously about privacy, but for a reality of two years ago and moreover for the nature of the service, protecting the privacy should be in the basis of the site. |
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| @degac Well spoken. Where I work its forbidden to (re)use a full live/real database in a test envr. (and the same connection passwords etc) People can make mistakes, but using so many private data this way is not done. I'm glad that they did not store the CC info :) but I don't want to give them another chance. They have learn it now, I hope |
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| Same here, I don't mind if a service has stability / reliability issues but giving out millions of user accounts (and pretty much everything else) because of stupidity means there is not second chance. Sorry Patreon, you're out. |
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| I still say a donate button would work better. For starters, it seems safer!! Plus, my income isn't exactly the most stable of things. (I made a whole £7 from iOS sales, this month!!!! Woohoo!!!!) |
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| I'm with Skid... They've probably learnt their lesson, and shored up its services to the hilt... I don't see any need to change personally. Dabz |
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| And I agree with Dabz. I see no reason to change... |
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| I still say a donate button would work better. For starters, it seems safer!! Plus, my income isn't exactly the most stable of things. (I made a whole £7 from iOS sales, this month!!!! Woohoo!!!!) Here's the problem, nobody uses donate buttons to send money. Have you ever used the donate button for anybody? If you have, then you're one of a very, very few. Patreon is a great system, and I think it's still worth using even after the hack. |
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| I'll still be paying on Patreon too. If a direct system was setup I'd use it though. I've been increasing my monthly amount over time and I encourage others who can to do so. Even if it's an extra $1 a month it would help. What Mark needs is long term passive reliable income so that he can continue focusing on development and not worry about money. We all want what he's making so it's in our interest to support him for the long term. |
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| I'll continue on Patreon too for now, until another method comes along that Mark prefers, or they balls up again! |
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| I am back to back Mark. Need to have a good and early look on Monkey 2. |
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| Shit gets hacked all the time, if you think something on the internet that millions of people use has not been hacked your wrong, so picking a service to use based on weather or not its hacked is probably an exercise in futility, best bet is pick the server which can best deal with it and continue operation with minimal impact if and when it does happen. Provided peatron can handle their mistake without causing any interruption to service then you might as well stick with them.. |
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| Guys, did Mark made that happen, that Monkey 2 is prerelased on a private GitHub? |
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| No, but private links have been distributed to backers. |
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| Ok, so it is still the same. Thanks |
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| Very exciting to hear about Monkey 2. Taking everything learned, keeping the good, leaving out the not so good...absolutely can't wait for this! |
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| Question: I have changed my payment option in Patreon from credit-card to PayPal (thinking that another level of 'abstraction' in the transition should be a little bit safer...). I just checked my PayPal account, but I have no payments for Patreon (other payments are present, so PayPal is working). Nor on my credit-card (the last one is on 6-9-2015...) There something obviously I missed? |
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| > There something obviously I missed? Can't think of anything, although I think payments only happen at the start of the month after you 'sign up' so maybe it's just not gone through yet. |
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| Ok, I'll wait until the first days of December to see what happens! |
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| I think payments only happen at the start of the month That is right. So a user newly Patreoning Mark wont see a first payment until the 1st of the following month. |
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| Just got this eMail today: Allison recommends : I will leak your identity From: sharingservices@... Unfortunately your data was leaked in the recent hacking of the Patreon web site and I now have your information. I have your tax id, tax forms, SSN, DOB, Name, Address, Credit card details and more sensitive data. Now, I can go ahead and leak your details online which would damage your credit score like hell and would create a lot of problems for you. If you would like to prevent me from doing this then you need to send 1 bitcoin to the following BTC address. Bitcoin Address: 1QAQTyhCzAfvp8uLpneBNamWTNRR1hx9Cp You can buy bitcoins using online exchanges easily. The bitcoin address is unique to you. Sending bitcoin takes take, so you better get started right now, you have 48 hours in total. Sounds like attempted extortion. :D |
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| Hi Danilo, yes I received the same email, however as I mentioned in my thread, I am not too concerned as the info they say they have is not part of the Patreon sign up process. However, it is still damn annoying! |
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| 100% scam. If you have any doubt: they sent the same bitcoin address to everyone they blasted the e-mail to. |
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| I suggest that you forward the information over to those law enforcement agencies that deal with such matters. |
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| The ones I received were from an AOL e-mail, or at least spoofed to appear from an AOL e-mail, I forwarded it to AOL spam. Honestly unlikely the person would ever be caught. Probably doesn't even live in a western country. This won't be the last time bad actors will use the leaked e-mails for spam/phishing/scamming attempts. |
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| Patroned! |
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| Hearted! |
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| Patroned! |
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| Also hearted! |
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