So who is playing with monkey2?
Monkey Archive Forums/Monkey Discussion/So who is playing with monkey2?
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| Like the topic title says... |
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| I'm 'exploring' it at the moment. Honestly, I'm awaiting the next step, it's clear that some (internal) things are subject to changes, like mojox (call it the internal GUI), Ted2, module manager, more 'clear' help etc Still trying to understand (well) the Lambda() thing (and many other I did't understand at all like FIBER ! it seems very 'voodoo' programming :D) 2 things are not very satisfying (to me of course): - native GUI: there's no plan (well, no official plan at least) to have a native GUI - and MX2 should not be considered (imho) ANOTHER 'game programming language', but something more. And 'more' means GUI to create 'proper' desktop applications. Moving ahead - with mobile support (for Android & iOS) in development, I hope that it will be possible to write 'apps' (not game!) in MX2, using the native UI. - mojo :too much OOP, it's redundant to write for each graphic command 'canvas.DrawTHIS'... as usually there's only one canvas to write on! I did (as learning experiment) a 'wrapper' so any 'method' is now a plain function that wrap the method(s) allowed (just added a SetCanvas(canvas:Canvas) function to 'set' what canvas use to draw. Same for colors... after years using 1..255 I've implemented (thank to MX syntax) some wrapper. ps: this 'problem' is common to MX1+mojo2 |
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| There's bits missing at present that should be natively in there like networking etc. I'm awaiting seeing where it goes and to have to compile it every update is a pain there should be a binary at least on windows. |
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| Last time I wanted to take a look I was turned back by the lack of an MSVC toolchain. The nice thing about Monkey's C++ build was that I could open the project in Visual Studio and take advantage of a fully featured IDE with profiler and debugger. Without that it's hard to get up any enthusiasm for it and certainly not for putting myself at the mercy of "in progress" code. |
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| I am not playing with it but trying to port fantomX to Monkey2 in a sensible manner. |
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| I love enum in Monkey 2, I wished we have that in MX. And I do miss pointers, I can finally do function pointers again in Monkey 2. But I am really scared of the C++ to Java connection code for Android, having seen what C++ to C# connection code is like in Windows Phone. So I am hanging back and waiting for the Android target. |
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| not touching it until it improves, honestly I see it as just a step to the left or right rather than a step forward so while I hate to say it, if things don't improve I will be moving to unity and skipping monkey2 all together. |
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| I'm supporting on Patreon but I have not even looked at Monkey2 at all, too much Monkey1 stuff still being worked on and not enough time in the day - damn real life! I did run the examples when the first "xmas demo" was released, but that's about it. @taiphoz If you are working on 2D stuff I would say take a look at Godot before you commit to Unity. |
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| @Paul: Any specifics you don't like? |
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| I've just started getting into MX2. I'm attempting to port my polygon tessellator and making it a module. (monkey 1 version here: https://github.com/Difference/tesselate-monkey ) |
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| @Playniax, Lots of little things none of which I would talk about here as it would potentially put other customers off and we don't need the negativity, more than happy to talk about in Skype tho if your really interested. needless to say I wont be letting go of monkey until I have a firm grasp of what ever I go to, and I finish my current project's which will keep me around in monkey for a while yet but I really doubt I will ever really touch monkey2. |
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| I tried it and didn't really take to it like all the Blitz products it still feels unfinished to me. Also having to compile it yourself doesn't give it a professional feel more like a hobby language. If I was mark I would put binaries out too. |
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| I tried the version from the installer for a while. I wil wait until there is a new installer with the newer version. I am not really planning on making anything big in mx2 until i can compile it into html5 and until it is a litlle bit more complete. I fear i wil not get a long wel with the documentation. |
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| I'm a bit unsure why I should switch to Monkey 2 any time. Will wait for a working Android AND iOS target. The concerns I have is that Monkey 2 is such a complex language that I ask myself why I shouldn't use C++ directly then. All Blitz languages where easy to use. When I now have a feature set of C++ I can use C++ directly. The biggest advantage is the cross platform thing for Android and iOS but as long as this doesn't work I see no point in using it. |
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| I agree that Monkey2 is a little rough around the edges and not finished but I think that is the general idea right now. He is developing it while beeing sponsored. Also TED2 is not really usable if you are used to JUNGLE or more advanced IDE's but I do think given time writing the IDE in Monkey2 is a brilliant move. This allows 3rd parties to step in and take it to a new level and it will run on most targets that Monkey2 runs on. I am sure a pre-build version ( binary ) will be available at some point. iOS, Android and 3d will also make it in I am sure so just a matter of time before it matures. I do love the language and once you get comfortable with the quirks ( for now ) it really is fun to work with. I also intend to offer pre-build packages with Pyro pre-installed once I feel Monkey2 and Pyro are getting there. Maybe for people who are not convinced yet should 'wait' and she what happens. I am not really interested in 3d right now but I guess once 3d makes it in there it will attract a new crowd too. @Paul, yeah I am on Skype and I am interested in what you think. |
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| Wall of text in Skype, don't say I didn't warn you lol. |
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| I played with it, ported fantomX to M2 but then decided that it isn't worth it. So I stopped using it. |
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| Well, to be honest... 1. for years we complained for the lack of communication from BRL/Marks 2. we complained for the lack of 'modern' features in the language 3. we complained for the lack of documentation 4. we complained for the lack of a 3d engine 5. we complained for the lack of a proper debugger 6. we complained for the lack of (choose what do you want: beer, money, girls :D) (just jocking...) 1. Mark is posting with regularity in the blog (in mx2 website) - after years of silence this is a BIG change :) ! 2. MX2 has so many 'strange' (for me at least) features that can be considered a 'translated version of C++ without curly brackets & strange symbols'. This doesn't mean you need/must use all the feature (Lambda() - once you get it - it's very handy!) 3. He's doing something... he's not his point of strength - but the MX2 site (it's a wordpress site - future proof) allow to add/insert comments & code to build an online base (for my personal use in the first - I've added something *basic* about the use of List etc). Moreover he's still working on tools to create on-source documentation, even if WIP. And often Mark is 'teaching' (with answers in the forum). 4. the MX2 design (just read Mark's blog) seems to allow an 'easy' DLL integration/conversion: the latest updates in the core-language (Class extension, Method To etc) seems to allow some sort 'of magic' when dealing with different library): so - a 3d engine could be a real possibility (the idea of a 3d engine written directly form Mark is unfounded). 5. I've used MX1 Ted: my 'love' for MX1 is gone after some tests with the 'debugged' infos. In TED2 (at least) we have a better highlight: sure is not the BEST solution (I don't think it exists) but it's a step ahead (in my opinion): at the moment I always found where my error was. In MX1 I had more difficulties. MX2 is *still* (and sure it will be) something in progress: Android / iOS support are delayed just because (I think) Mark is still fixing/calibrating everything. The question is: What miss to MX2 to take-off? |
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| Well put degac! |
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| That's a fine list indeed but does not cover what I personally see as the three massive failings for this community and Mark, the crap Documentation and lack of user input on it, the terrible website and lack of modern features like fora and a proper showcase that you know, actually show cases good work, and last but in no way least the catastrophic evisceration of a small community being smashed into three even smaller separate communities. All of which are things Mark can easily fix. 1. Add the ability for users of the site to comment on each Document page allowing them to add code examples, allowing the community to help fill in the example snippet side of the docs. 2. Pay some one to do a 100% revamp of the website, I am a massive WordPress Fan really it's a simply stunning bit of code, but only mark could take something with it's capabilities and strip it down and make it look like a website from 1990 lol. The Website needs a total redo from a professional web developer. 3. Not going to rant, but splitting the community 3 times has been in my view catastrophic I simply have no clue what Marks initial thought process was but it's clearly wrecked things, the EASY solution here is to take the professional developer from item 2. and give him the additional task of merging all three sites and communities into one mega(as it should have been from the start) community, a community where a B3D coder ( Yes they still exist ) can post something and where a Monkey coder could look at it and go, Know what that's cool I wonder if I can do that monkey!. Step 3 might be easy but of course wont be pain free. but I think at this stage drastic measures are required or this tiny community and Marks love will dwindle away to end up being nothing but 5 guys and a language, no one wants to see that, at least I hope not. |
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| @Paul: Some people in the old B3D/BMX forums are against Mark, some like to use all energy to work against Mark's new products. Taking the old open-sourced BRL-products, enhance/change it, and port newest Mojo/Mojo2 MonkeyX(2)-stuff to BMX-NG, etc. You don't want such people within the community for your latest project. It's counterproductive. May be the reason for splitting of communities... |
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| I think there is some bitterness brought on by the fact they feel like mark abandoned them, a sentiment that might not have arisen had mark not split the community, while we felt the split more they felt it to. |
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| The positive: At least for now, the MX2 forum does concentrate on programming with and for MX2. No personal flame-wars etc. - just talk about the important programming stuff. It's nice. :) |
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| @Paul: as it's just a website based on WP - IF and WHEN Mark wants it will be possible to make 'experiments'. Personally the forum is quite good (in terms of usability/search/tagging etc). A potential user could find that It lacks a gallery? Really? Maybe because MX2 is still a sort of beta and there's still nothing to show atm? Maybe - when emscripten support will be completed - this could change. I'm quite optimistic about this, as you stated WP is full of plugin to satisfy quite every needs. (Playnax showed a beta-demo of his framework running on MX2-emscripten so...) Documentation/help: just use the actual WP section (modules) and add something (I've did in std.collections for StringMaps) A 100% fine tuning (maybe with a pro designer) is something you can did only when you are quite sure you have *completed* the language itself about the splitted community: well, I'm still a Bmax user (it's solid and fits my needs at the moments - mainly desktop/GUI applications). I know that the 'value' is from your user base. When BlitzMax come out I remember there were so many comments from (many) users who wanted Blitz3d 2.0 and not a such language with strange OOP features... So better have (for the moment at least) a MX2 forum just for this. If and when MX2 will have some features that could be interesting for (ie) Blitz3d users... Mark could decide to join everything. For now I'm with Danilo: MX2 seems very focused on the 'product' itself, without distractions etc |
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| I agree about the splitting. It hurts ALL the forums. Most of the active posters have at least some interest in more than one of the products, but who wants to visit a bunch of separate forums every day? As for the language, original Monkey did and does deliver something I'm interested in. It's easy to use and delivers reliable multi-targeting for mobile and web-projects, all wrapped in a package that works out of the box. The language may not be perfect but it's plenty good enough. Monkey 2 seems like the new Blitz Max, which never interested me, but if it suits others I'm not going to rain on their parade. I drop in to see what's happening, but I've never tried it. If Monkey 1 become unusable, I'll probably have to switch to Unity, unless Monkey 2 delivers everything Monkey 1 does without much hassle. |
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| We still have some big legacy projects with Monkey, but I'm super hesitant to invest any serious time at all into Monkey 2... maybe when it's fully ready to go with all problems figured out for commercial releases. For now, I've moved most of my near future commercial 2d projects to Defold as it publishes to platforms that matter, and has some serious productivity and performance gains possible. Everything that Defold has could be built for Monkey / Monkey 2, but I've already rebuilt all of the things we made for Monkey to make it usable for commercial projects, and at this point I'd rather focus on making games, and not doing the extra work to build the tools needed to make games on top of other tools... For a serious commercial 3d project, we're using Lumberyard (a CryEngine fork). Seems pretty good. Defold and Lumberyard both have largeish, full time teams dedicated to improving them, their licenses both are great for indies - neither have royalties or costs (Defold is 100% free - doesn't require credits, Lumberyard is free too but I think Lumberyard requires some credits in your credits screen (unless your game is rated M+), and can't use AWS competitors, but you can use servers you own), and they both fill the 2d/3d sides well. Defold can do basic 3d too (it is a full 3d engine under the hood, but 2d is treated as the first class priority for now), and in the near future may be very suitable for basic 3d mobile games. We'll see. Highly recommend commercial devs to check both out. Compared to something like Unity, Defold has much better performance and lower runtime cost. Lumberyard is pretty comparable to Unreal / CryEngine proper. It's a fork, and Amazon team has been improving it a ton. Still really disappointed Monkey never really took off. Hope maybe M2 does. |
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| Wow, I never heard of Defold - seems worth a look! |
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